Transcript of Daniel Estulin's Interview with LaRouche
March 20th, 2013 • 4:45pm •


On March 20, 2013 an interview with Lyndon LaRouche was broadcast on Russia Today's Spanish-language TV, on Daniel Estulin's weekly show, ``From the Shadows.''

{The written blurb announcing the program reads: ``Star Wars, an Out-dated Project? In this edition, Daniel Estulin returns to the year 1983, when President Ronald Reagan openly proposed to the Soviet Union cooperation on what he called the Strategic Defense Initiative. Moscow at the time rejected the U.S. proposal, suspecting malice of some sort. Now, the lost possibilities of the proposal for cooperation are being studied.}

ESTULIN: With the world today wracked by conflicts and wars, which could readily escalate to a general thermonuclear war, we are approaching the 30th anniverary of an event which came close to ushering in a new era of international cooperation around the common aims of mankind.

That date was March 23, 1983; and the event was a historic, nationally-televised speech by then U.S. President Ronald Reagan, in which he offered to launch U.S. cooperation with the Soviet Union around what he called the Strategic Defense Initiative, or SDI.

Today, we will speak with Lyndon LaRouche, one of the architects of that historic event. But first, we go out to the street to ask people their view of what the SDI means for humanity.

[[man on the street inteviews]]

ESTULIN: Lyndon, welcome to the program.

LAROUCHE: My pleasure.

ESTULIN: Mr. LaRouche, as one of the leading protagonists of the Strategic Defense Initiative, can you explain to the audience exactly what that concept is?

LAROUCHE: The point was very simple. We recognized the methods involved, the technology involved, the science involved, and the obvious thing is we knew that the Soviet Union was doomed, was doomed sooner or later. And therefore the point was that the old issues with the Soviet system which had existed into the 1970s, that those issues were really dead as long as some idiot and so forth did not try to start a war.

We've actually reached the point at which the military capabilities represented by thermonuclear weapons systems between major powers, would mean a virtual extinction of humanity. Therefore, the question is, how do we deal with a situation of that nature under these circumstances?

ESTULIN: LaRouche launched his proposal for Soviet-U.S. cooperation on ballistic missile defense in 1977, in the context of his battle against the Presidency of Jimmy Carter, which was supported by the Trilateral Commission of David Rockefeller and Zbigniew Brzezinski, along with the financial oligarchy, and which entered the White House with a stated agenda of provoking a policy of nuclear confrontation with Moscow. LaRouche had been made aware of the Trilateral Commission circles' confidential policy documents which revealed those confrontation plans, prior to his presidential campaign with the U.S. Labor Party.

Contrary to speculation then and now, the Strategic Defense Initiative, or SDI, was not a military system as such, but rather a strategy for changing the parameters of the political, strategic and global economic equation in a related manner.

Lyndon, what role did you personally play to try to get the scientific community, President Reagan, and the Soviet government to accept the SDI proposal, and what actually is the content of this joint statement for humanity?

LAROUCHE: I was working with a scientific institution, the Fusion Energy Foundation, and under those auspices, I got into a brief negotiation, discussion, indirectly, with a relevant representative of the US government at that time. So I approached Soviet circles which I knew, and we had quite a discussion on this issue, and it was our discussion which led to the process. We reached the point that we were about to proceed. The question was would Reagan agree? It was clear that he did agree. I moved on this, we moved ahead, the Russians moved ahead, but then Andropov came in. Andropov was the one who shut off the negotiations, yelling "Nyet! Nyet! Nyet!"

ESTULIN: The Soviet Politburo, still under the leadership of Leonid Brezhnev, was put in a serious bind by the appearance of the Reagan administration, in the international political context. Soon after Ronald Reagan was elected President, a seasoned Soviet diplomat at the United Nations approached a LaRouche colleague and asked for an appraisal from LaRouche.

Although many different aspects of these negotiations with the Soviets over the LaRouche team's proposal remain secret, what is certain and comes from direct involvement is that, after the death of Brezhnev in November 1982, through LaRouche and his team, good-faith discussions were held between Moscow and Washington in a high-level and experienced environment, about the creation of a new strategic flank for scientific cooperation between both powers.

Lyndon, what did the Soviet government do to sabotage the SDI offer?

LAROUCHE: Simply "Nyet!" We had agreed on virtually everything before Andropov came into the picture. We had the preconditions, we were all set up. I was involved in setting up all these conditions. I was working both sides. I was working with the Soviet side, which I was consulting with. I was working with the Reagan administration also. And we had a whole group of people who were relevant U.S. figures from the intelligence community who were also fully involved with this. So this was my baby; we had it until Andropov came on the scene. Andropov was totally responsible, it was his personal responsibility for breaking this off.

ESTULIN: In Moscow, there was a significant change with the rise to power of Yuri Andropov. For me, Andropov has always been an enigma. On the one hand, he defended to the death the interests of the Soviet Union. And on the other hand, he built his policy in agreement with the strategic plans of the British Empire. A pure coincidence, or an unlikely conspiracy? I don't know. The question which Andropov should have asked himself is: What grouping did the Soviet government prefer? There, in not thinking in those terms, are the roots of the tragic insanity of Yuri Andropov, from March and April of 1983.

So Andropov chose the British as the lesser evil, imagining that Adam Smith was scientifically superior as an economist to Alexander Hamilton and Carey. And he accepted Bertrand Russell and the dogmas of Laszlo on arms control also as the lesser evil. Therein lie the factors which contributed to Andropov's mistaken decision to accept Kissinger's proposal to say "nyet" to President Reagan.

Despite the fact that he had been duly informed of the two years of "back channel negotiations" in Washington under the sponsorship of the Reagan National Security Council, Andropov rejected the proposal for joint collaboration on the Strategic Defense Initiative.

Lyndon, what was your relationship with Andropov?

LAROUCHE: Andropov was unknown to me except that I knew his record, and got to know his record more, later, but he came out of the blue. We had a negotiation that was worked out; we had Soviet officials in the UN office who were there, they started the thing. They called me, I checked with the US circles and they said yes, go ahead. So I went ahead, and I picked my Soviet contact, who was a representative to the United States at that time, and a seasoned figure. We conducted negotiations. It was done with the office of Reagan.

We were agreed; the entire Reagan administration, including the intelligence staff, the intelligence committee, we were all in agreement and we were very happy that Reagan was doing what he was doing. Reagan was the guy who actually had the initiative to go with this. He was the one who said yes, we're going; and he said it with a television broadcast which was broadcast throughout the world. And everything he intended, he said.

ESTULIN: Mr. LaRouche, if you were the President of the United States, what steps would you take to revive the SDI today?

LAROUCHE: I simply would go to Russians who all want this agreement; the current Russian administration wants this agreement. They're trying to get it; they're trying to negotiate with the U.S. military establishment to work something out in this direction. So the willingness on the part of Russia and China, in particular, and the United States agencies, relevant agencies, is the same. We want to still create a situation under which there will be no thermonuclear war. We want a new system of peace among nations, because we know that if you break the peace, the human species will not survive a thermonuclear war.

ESTULIN: The Strategic Defense of the Earth, does it relate only to the recent situation we've had with the asteroids, or does it go further and look somehow into the future of mankind?

LAROUCHE: Well, first of all, you cannot have a thermonuclear war, and therefore you have to find ways among sane people who are going to try to work out a system. I believe the conditions for that system exist between the United States as a nation, and the current administration in Russia. Everything that I see confirms that. Russia is looking for an agreement with the United States. The Russian military responsibles are looking for such an agreement. China obviously wants a similar agreement. India would have the same interest. We all know what thermonuclear warfare means, and we're determined not to have it. We know there has to be a change in the course of history, because the capabilities of thermonuclear weapons are such that we can no longer have warfare.

ESTULIN: What are the scientific dimensions of the original SDI? How do these initiatives benefit humanity scientifically?

LAROUCHE: Well, first of all, if you increase the energy flux density of technology, you have increased the means, the improvement of human existence in every respect. The problem now is, since the assassination of Kennedy, we've been going on a drift downward toward something British, something strange. But we in the United States, traditionally, and those in Russia, have a coincidence of agreement. We live in a world where thermonuclear weapons exist. If wars among major powers break out, we're talking about the threatened extinction of the human species. It's that simple.

ESTULIN: During the period of the SDI in the 1980s, there was also great fear that nuclear war would erupt in Europe. We talked about the American position and the Soviet position back then. What about the attitude of the European military leaders to your SDI proposal?

LAROUCHE: Well, if you're going to that point, I would say that the senior people, many retired but also many senior military people in Germany, in France, the Gaullists in France, for example, in Italy and so forth, all agreed on this point. When I organized this process, it started also with an organization of leading figures in Germany, leading military and other figures in Italy, leading Gaullists in France, and some of our own people. Also Argentina and so forth. India also. So we had an agreement in principle, a discussion among people who are leading figures in these nations. Many of them were working from the background, like quasi-retired people, but they were representing their governments and that's the way sometimes governments do negotiate.

And so I was in the center of this whole collation of people who were working for this single idea. We'd come to the point where, on the basis of what we knew about thermonuclear technology, we knew that we'd reached a point where we could not have a general war among major nations. It would be thermonuclear war and it would be an extinction of the human species.

ESTULIN: How would you like to see the SDI and the Strategic Defense of the Earth program carried out today and into the future?

LAROUCHE: You just saw an example of what the problem is in the thing that happened in Siberia in Russia recently, with this meteor strike across this Russian territory, and some other things of similar nature. We are in a point where the danger to people on Earth, and to Earth as a whole, is now very significant. I'm very concerned with this Mars development, because if we put more apparatus on Mars-- it's not a hell of a lot now--but if we put more of this automatic equipment on Mars, we can actually proceed to get defense against asteroids. Comets are a more complicated problem, but the asteroid question is a real one. We just had a nearby shot in this period; we're going to get more. And therefore, a defense of Earth, as the Russians have the same policy, a defense of Earth against these kinds of threats, asteroids primarily, is important because we do not have presently any effective defense against asteroids.

ESTULIN: How does progress and development affect the future of mankind?

LAROUCHE: If mankind does not increase its technological scientific capabilities, mankind can become extinct, it can be rendered extinct. Look, we are passing through an area of density of asteroids and similar related kinds of things -- like this meteor shot, which was a real surprise -- these kinds of things. And if you just increase the thrust a little bit over what we recently experienced, any one of these things could take out a good part of the human species.

ESTULIN: The rejection of LaRouche's proposal also had terrible consequences for western countries, because this rejection accelerated the global disintegration of the economy, controlled from London and Wall Street. This meant that the trans-Atlantic nations were also condemned to a process of monetary and economic disintegration, which has now entered into end-game.

The beginning of the end were the years of the Andropov government, and then of his protégé, that bastard traitor to the Russian Fatherland, Mikhail Gorbachev. The liberal economic reform policies signed under the rubric of "Perestroika" were associated with both Andropov and Gorbachev, and they ended up sinking the Soviet Union into an internal collapse between 1989 and 1992. It was nothing other than the continuation of the same pro-gangster tendency of the so-called "liberal economic reforms" promoted by U.S. President George Bush, Sr., and his ambassador Robert Strauss, which ruined Russia in the period from 1993 to 1999.

Lyndon, one last question. What should we, as humanity, do to navigate through these treacherous times?

LAROUCHE: So this is the way we have to look at these things. We have to realize that the time has come, when we have to understand that we have explore the planets around us, just as Columbus and company explored the conquest of the oceans, or the ancient Egyptians had effectively sailed their shops, their flotillas, down to Chile, across the southern Pacific. So we have to take the great lessons from mankind, which are two lessons: First of all, the history of slavishness, destroyed the civilization of Europe! And Europe has not recovered from that to this present day! And therefore, we have to think in those terms of reference. We have to think, mankind has challenges now, mankind is threatened on Earth now, because of our own stupidity and our failure to do things we should have done. But if we don't restore the spirit of Cusa and the relationship to people like Christopher Columbus, without that spurt of {insisting on
progress!} Get rid of the slavish habits! Get rid of the old habits, the stupid stubborn habits! And get the kind of pioneers who in attacking a problem within one part of the Solar System or within the Solar System itself, or some other neighborhood of the Solar System, doing that, having that state of mind and skills to do that, is the essential quality which is required to get the entire human species moving in a more productive direction.

ESTULIN: Mr. LaRouche, we have run out of time. Thank you very much for being with us.

LAROUCHE: Thank you.

ESTULIN: When we generate and transmit discoveries of universal principles to our children, and to those who will come after, in this way we remain alive forever in the history of humanity. In our earthly existence, it is no longer a question of whether or not there is a beginning or an end. We have found a place in eternity, from which we radiate that experience to generations that will follow us, and we project our being towards the future. In that way, we become immortal children of the universe.

Technological, scientific and cultural progress is required, not simply to be richer or more powerful, but because we need to be immortal, something which no animal can achieve. We must be part of the discovery and application of universal physical principles, since no animal can do so, but we can. In this way, when we directly find our true motivation and morality, then we are truly invincible.