LaRouchePAC Policy Committee, September 8, 2014, Transcript
September 16, 2014 • 9:10AM

MATTHEW OGDEN: Good afternoon, it's Sept. 15th, 2014. My name is Matthew Ogden and you're joining us for our weekly discussion with the LaRouche PAC Policy Committee. As you can see, we have a full house here in the studio: We've got Mike Steger joining us from California; we've got Diane Sare joining us from up in New Jersey; we've got Bill Roberts who came in from Detroit, Michigan; and of course, we've got Mr. LaRouche; and then joining us over Google Hangouts On Air, we've got Kesha Rogers, who's down in Houston, Texas; and we've got Dave Christie, who's out in Seattle, Washington. And we're expecting Rachel Brinkley, from Boston, Massachusetts, soon, I understand.

Here in the studio, I'm going to let Lyn start us off.

LYNDON LAROUCHE: Well, I just had a wonderful experience, shall we say, donated to me, which I lived through, and I found I survived. And I feel healthier as a result of doing this; I recommend it. I don't know how other people might take this thing, but I think we've reached the point where, because I'm a senior person, a non-retired senior person that I have a certain responsibility of a new kind, to assume things that have not been assumed before. And so, I shall be doing that with some very special kinds of things that I have up my sleeve for the future. And so, let's go ahead, and have some fun!

OGDEN: Well, I know there was a very enjoyable event yesterday, where you got to hear the full performance of a Brahms string quartet as part of the celebration of your birthday, and also a very extensive discussion from Helga who just returned from her trip to China. So I do think that the paradigm that Helga experienced, the new paradigm which is the future, your emphasis is that there's nothing that resembles this experience in our past; there's nothing which has preceded us in experience, which resembles what the future must bring, and the understanding and the experience of the future which we are leading.

LAROUCHE: What Helga did was made a plunge into the future, and it actually was a plunge into the future. It was not something that could have happened or so forth, she went out and did it! And she took us through all kinds of places, across Europe, and up to China, as such into China, and beyond. She was a very significant voice in China and for China during that period there, and she's now actually trying to digest what she has now inherited, as a result of this process. I think she's probably sitting up there someplace, doing her planning and plotting, with the little dog of course, in company. And so all this thing is going.

And I think in particular, there's something very notable here: We cleaned up the northern part of our organization in the United States. We cleaned it up! And the problems of the past are going to be thrown away; they will not be recurring. And that means that what we're going to do in that area — and you see what happened with the musical program as well — it's going to be upgraded. Everything that we've done so far is going to be upgraded. And our people will do it. Why will they do it? Because they like to do it, and this is pleasant for them, as opposed to something else!

And so, you're going to find I think that most of our friends and associates are going to be more and more committed, with greater and greater passion, to changing the weather, that is the political weather, of the United States and other places, too!

So I think, is where we stand.

DIANE SARE: I think part of the reason for this spectacular, criminal news media blackout of what China is doing and what Egypt is doing, as well as what you have been doing over these last many years, is, it's a psychological warfare against the American population, because people have no idea how idea how insane it is, that they have tolerated these last two Presidencies: The Cheney-Bush administration which ran the cover-up of 9/11, the Obama administration who has perpetuated that cover-up and is plunging us into complete insanity. And I think the more we can take the message that Helga had yesterday about China to the American people, they may be able to get a glimmer that it is really not necessary for us to submit to a criminal government any longer.

LAROUCHE: I think that what we're faced with this, first of all, the old system of government is finished! That is, in any reasonable disposition, it's finished! That kind of government will no longer exist on this planet, because if you try to make it exist on this planet, this planet's not going to exist! So therefore, what we are going to do, we are actually going recalculate the meaning of government, in terms of the role of the individual citizenry.

And you're going to see that: You see it in China. What Helga did in China, for example, which was limited in the quantity of what she did, although it was rather thrilling for some people to experience, that, we're going into a new era, a new conception of mankind. And it's an area which I like, which I've been supporting as a project, for some time. And I think we're going to start looking at nearby space, no space, but nearby space and we're going to recognize that we have a proprietary right, in nearby space, to control the development of space.

That's what I think is going to happen. That's what is happening now, and that's what China has represented in its approaches, what Europe is moving toward, what China is moving toward, what India is moving toward, what the nations of the South America are doing: They're all part of this movement. Human beings, the social process, does not want the old British system, or anything like it! If it's British, it's brutish: Get rid of it!

And I think, you know, I don't like to meddle in others' matters, but in this case, there's a bit of Scots coming up to the surface inside me. It's also quite legitimately Scottish in terms of ancestry, but I feel more Scottish now for this moment, than I've ever sensed before! So I'm not trying to say I'm going to be a Scotsman, but I just feel so Scottish about all the things that are happening right now!

OGDEN: I think the good slogan for the independence vote this week, "If it's British it's brutish."

LAROUCHE: Yes, well, that's quite true. That's a certainty, you don't even need a definition. That's it! Get rid of the British monarchy, get rid of this garbage, and let the inhabitants off the British Isles sort out their own mess.

MICHAEL STEGER: And in these last couple of days, we've also seen a major shift in the political process here, around the 28 pages [classified chapter from the 9/11 Joint Congress Inquiry]. We had the press conference on Tuesday [of Congressmen and 9/11 family members to declassify the 28 pages] which was really remarkable. If people haven't watched it, there's a certain gravity increasing around these 28 pages.

And former Sen. Bob Graham has now made a number of interventions over the weekend, picked up by the Independent in London, Fox News, Russia Today, it's getting international press coverage.

And obviously in the context of what Obama laid out last week, with this insane war policy, and he's not even willing to call it a war, you see the kind of culmination, where this is a period where we've got to see a political change in the United States. We're on the verge of that, otherwise we're not going to survive much longer.

LAROUCHE: Well, the key thing for me, and this is what I came up in terms of what I just did this weekend, is that, we have to understand, we are not operating on the basis of a sense economy. We're not functioning on the basis of what we call economy in practice. We're functioning on the basis of the creation of a higher order of system, in the Solar System, mankind's own Solar System today, and we're going into a new system, a higher order system. Not the old system, not a revision of the old system, but an actually new system, which is based on challenging the Solar System. That's where we, as mankind, must locate our identity. We're no longer earthlings; we're now part of the Solar System and the sooner we accept that fact, the better for all of us

KESHA ROGERS: Yeah. I think that just going back and looking at some of Helga's, Mrs. LaRouche's material, and her work going back to '96-'97 in China, is really something that sets the stage for where we are today. Because I think the problem that we're running into is that, especially with the younger generations, you've had a denial of the sense of the future because — and obviously, it goes much further back, as Mrs. LaRouche is saying, the understanding of Confucian philosophy and history in China, and really, the understanding for that matter, of the fight for the creative nature of mankind in the Renaissance we've been building for, is really coming to fruition.

But how young people right now, especially in the United States, who have grown up under the past two administrations, especially, the Bush-Obama administration, have been denied this access. And I'm going back, and as I'm looking at some of this material, that we're not talking about just continental bridges, rail lines, nuclear power plants and infrastructure, in and of itself, but we're talking about how it is, why it is, that right now, one, you're saying that in the United States the shaping of the Presidency — which most people don't understand how the Presidency works — is going to have to come about by the emergence of Clinton to take leadership, not to be President but to bring back in the forces that would actually run a functional Presidency; people, when you say "Clinton," first of all, they say, "Oh, are you saying Clinton should go in and form a coup on the Presidency, or on the President?" or something crazy like that! They have no idea.

But, the other thing is that, the way we're thinking in the United States is, really, not with this perspective of the mission in the United States, or the revival of where the United States should be going, lies in your outlook on future generations, especially the younger generation. And it's just the fact that right now, there is no commitment to the younger generations, nor to the older generations, and these people, they don't see how it is, that we've come to this point, an what the fight has actually been, that our organization has in particular has led. And some people think they know, and they'll say, "Oh, we know what you guys have been doing, what LaRouche represents" and so forth, but they really don't, and they start to say, "but you can't ever accomplish anything."

But it goes back to the very point that you brought up at the beginning, which is, is that people don't have a sense of, one, that nature of man in the future, or in the Solar System. So I think that's really important the way you're expressing it.

LAROUCHE: Yes. Because it's not what we're doing, it's not our experience per se, that's not the issue. The issue is, we are part of the Solar System as an organization. Now we don't know what the Solar System means, really; some people think that they know what the Solar System means, but they're foolish; they don't know what they're talking about, because they haven't been thinking clearly enough. We don't really know how the Solar System works, in full! Now we do know, that China, the Chinese development, have got a very good idea, of what might be the proper approach to developing a control mechanism, for the development of this higher order of space. This is something that I've been dealing for a longer period of time, relatively speaking; and other people have been doing, too, at the same time.

So therefore, we know that we have to do that. For example, what I did yesterday, in an intervention I made, was to point out, what the nature is of what our personality is. It's not what most people think it is the most important thing. It's what we create, as a higher order of development than we have known before, among human beings, that, which is the brilliant revelation of mankind, of mankind's experience, that is what's important!

And Kesha understands this in her own way, because of what her history is. She was a fighter, within an alien environment; and she was forced to fight under an alien environment! She succeeded in fighting within that alien environment. And she's learning more and more, still, even when she got sick for a period of time, and so forth; she's still struggling to get a mastery of this role which she knows is her property, her destiny. And she has people whom she work with, who share exactly the same destiny.

But we know that what our obligation is, to find out what it is in the Solar System, that we have to learn to control, for the sake of humanity's future. And that is it! That is what makes things beautiful, or makes them stink.

ROGERS: I think you also have to learn not to live in fear, because, you know, some of the members of the Policy Committee were having a discussion, and Michael can say more on this, and Michael is presenting more of the picture of the devastation of the water crisis and the drought; and we keep talking about how you're going to feed your population, and how you're going to have people to be able to eat, and some people don't realize how close we are to that being taken away. And so, you look at the circumstance and say, well, you have to have a different sense of a vision for the future that is not going to cause you to act or respond in fear, but to say, okay, this can be solved. But the reality of how rapidly this is coming on, that we're at a point where people, one, will so not be able to eat, or already are not having enough water, not having enough energy supply, that this has to be addressed with a sense of urgency.

LAROUCHE: It can only be done on a global basis. There is no solution, for the water crisis in the United States presently, under present policies, present conditions — no solution! Now, how are you going to react, to the fact that you live on a continent where the western part of the continent is going to be a failure. Intrinsically, there's nothing you can do about it — as long as you limit yourself to that perspective. Therefore you have to go across the oceans, you have to learn how to master the oceans, master the planet as a whole. We can do that.

But the idiots on Wall Street don't want us to do it. And they will kill us all off, if they could get a chance to do so. That's what we're dealing with.

We have to change the policy of the United States, we have to change the wigs which are worn by some of these politicians, and we're going to find out there's nothing under the wig.

But the point is, we are in a hopeless situation, if you're trying to talk about how you can work, make the United States successful, you are hopeless wreck, and a useless one. Because we have to go to higher reaches, of intervention into nearby parts of the Solar System. Without that we can't do damned thing! And that's the lesson that people have to learn right now, and get on the ball, as we say. Otherwise, they ain't gonna make it. And that's my job and that's my concern: We've got to make it. And the jerks have to be told, "you are going to be forced to make it."

BILL ROBERTS: Well, I think as we get closer and closer to a point where we must make a decision on how we're going to ensure the future of our people, it's like the dictatorship of fear in the population is getting more and more intense. You actually see the revival of opinions, like "how much longer does Obama have in there?" or "no, we can't impeach him, we have to wait until we get the Senate back"; and this dictatorship of popular opinion becomes more intense, even as the Senate, the Congress is looking at the fact that Obama wants to arm ISIS to fight ISIS. We have a drought that clearly can't be put off for two years, let alone a year.

And so, that fear is becoming more intense, and we see the need for that sort of shift toward what exactly is captivating Chinese society right now, this sense of creating a future, of a Promethean sense of identity. That's what it is, that's what we need.

LAROUCHE: Absolutely. And we can have it. We can have it! It's going to take a fight but we can do it, and we have to do it!

DAVE CHRISTIE: You know, just on that question of intention, because I think that's often what comes up is, actually, Lyn, just from the standpoint of the organizing, and people will say, "Okay, but what's LaRouche's angle? What's he really up to?" And the idea of actually doing something for the good, just doesn't compute in modern culture, the degradation of the culture. And I think this is the same thing that comes up with China. People want to map the present system onto what they're doing, as if, now it's China's turn. The British Empire, the trans-Atlantic system is now collapsing and China's just out to take over the world. They're the new empire, now. And people just want to map this old, dead system onto the new one, and they can't understand that there actually could be motivation to do the good.

I mean, Cotton Mather, one of the seminal founders of the Massachusetts Bay Colony, which really was then the legacy which led to Ben Franklin and the American Revolution, wrote book, literally, Essays To Do Good. Or you take the influence Leibniz, the idea of "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness," is not property, it's happiness, this is actually the motivation. And I think actually, your wife Helga Zepp-LaRouche made a point on this, where she said: I used to think that people just didn't know about our organization, those that hated us; they just hadn't read anything, they hadn't dived into it. And she said, but I realized at a certain point that they had looked at what we were saying, and they didn't like it, because they're gripped by this present system. They're gripped by this Hobbesian worldview that says to do something for happiness, to do something for the future, to do something for the good, isn't a reality, that's not practical. It's all about getting what you can for your own. And that's what they don't like about what we represent, is that that's actually the underlying foundation of the commitment to the future.

LAROUCHE: Well, they don't want the future. That's the problem: They don't want the future to happen. If it's going to happen, they want to have controlled the creation of the future, and that's what they object to. Or say, "you are impractical, you are not a practical thinker. Your policies are not practical." And you say, "well, your existence is therefore not practical." And I often think that, and I am increasingly tempted to say that: The problem here is that your existence is no longer very useful any more. Especially Wall Street and some of our other, shall we say, institutions. They're not useful, they're worthless. Throw them out! Put 'em on the street. We don't need them any more! We don't need most of members of Congress any more, we don't need them. Because what they do, is they carry a luggage with them, which is counterproductive. You know, Boehner, foolish idiot.

OGDEN: He's one of the Whigs.

LAROUCHE: A foolish man, completely foolish, and yet somebody sustains him in office. Mr. Silliness. The man's an idiot, in terms of function. He may have some skill someplace, hidden, but when it comes to actually understanding what makes the world work successfully or not, he's an idiot! And he's a dangerous idiot, because he's a compulsive one.

OGDEN: [laughs] Compulsive idiocy!

LAROUCHE: Well, that's all he is. He is compulsive. He's an absolutely compulsive idiot.

SARE: Well, your remarks yesterday on this whole question of thinking of the future, thinking of creating something new, having an idea of something that one has never experienced before, causes me to think of two things: One is, of course, the Schiller bred-fed scholar, the Brotgelehrten, versus the universal thinker. The other is the really extraordinary, I'm appreciating more and more humility of Brahms's student Jenner, who was generous enough to mankind, to leave a journal, a record of his experiences of going to Brahms with his compositions; and his description of how he would come in with something he really though was beautiful, the thing that he loved the most. And that would be the first thing that Brahms would throw out, and say, "No, I don't know why you did this. Get rid of this." And then Brahms would find something of great interest which was not the thing that Jenner thought was the most important aspect. And I think that really is a challenge of how to think in a moment like this.

LAROUCHE: It's true of all great composers. They all live like that in terms of their achievement. And it's also extended more and more to creative people generally. What makes them creative is the fact is, they know that the present is not the solution, and therefore, they look for the solution and say, well, we discovered this; we know this; we had this experience, and so and so, but that didn't do anything for us! What did we do, with our mind, to make this something worthwhile, uniquely worthwhile?

What did Brahms do in each case, which was unique, and necessarily unique, in order to produce something? Schumann, the same thing, the whole history is the same thing. And the point is that we must not seek success; we must succeed, in creating the future that we need. That's what all great creative work is: You create the future because it's needed. We go into space, we try to deal with the mysteries of nearby space, why do we do that? Because we know we have to do something that has not been done before, it's that simple. And that's what all creative people do. They are looking for opportunities and creativity, which lies beyond what any man has done before and that's the secrete of all successful thinking.

RACHEL BRINKLEY: And that's what you referenced recently, with bringing up the Renaissance that that's a comparable period of history to right now, is the Renaissance, when you had a fundamental change in how people looked at themselves. That no longer were people just beasts of burden, but each individual had this spark of creativity. So that fundamentally changed human history. And that is like the period we are now going through, the limitations are not just in Congress or something like that, but the limitations are in our way of thinking. And then, so in that way, it is very subjective to each person, how can you change your thinking that is correct, that is needed to recognize what's wrong about what you were thinking. It's not just throwing out Obama, it's changing yourself.

LAROUCHE: We had an experience, for example, with John Sigerson, who did some composing and similar kinds of things yesterday at our events. And he was very active in this area; he has been active in this area before, as is not an unusual thing. But yesterday, he spent a rather effort, in shaping a contribution to what could be done in the context of that event yesterday. He did a magnificent job. But, that's what we should do! That's what everyone who's capable should do. If you can not create something fresh, something that's needed, something that was missing otherwise, you really are not a success. And the idea of success is not looking for successes. The idea of success is the idea that you have found a hole, a loophole in your behavior, and you realize that's a fault and you go out to correct it! [laughter]

STEGER: You actually said something very provocative. There was a rehearsal at your house on Saturday night, of a quartet. And you had said something, where you made comments such as, "don't be so specific," "don't follow the prejudice, you can't submit to the prejudice, your prejudice of the notes, you have to submit to something higher." And what it provokes thought is what kind of state of mind is necessary to take a piece and to make it spontaneous, to make fresh. Not to just have a course of action you're going to follow that you're preplanned.

And you see the relevance of it, because this British monetary system has failed. Any attempt to impose it, failed: In Argentina, failed; in Russia, it backfires. In every case, it backfires. Even in Scotland, their attempt right now is to try to threaten Scotland with a monetary penalty. Versus the question of sovereignty.

And you see what China's doing — I mean, right now China is in India talking about nuclear power plants; they've got a third generation of astronauts which are going to be engineers; they're thinking about a physical development, they're almost just immune to these monetary threats. There's no pre-plan, it's a question of a fight for development.

LAROUCHE: Let me just intervene once more on this thing. What we're going into a period now, a new period of mankind's life, which it must be, mankind's new life. And we must do things, which not because they're unique or so forth, but because it's required that you actually reach out and begin to change the Solar System as we have known it. And doing that, which is something which I've of course, off and on period of experience, often happens, but that commitment, the idea that there is a future out there, and you're going to have to find what it is and bring it to bear. And when you do that, when you make a real discovery of principle, you are really exhilarated throughout your whole body by that kind of experience.

And actually, it becomes the means which most drives you, with the greatest passion, is that. And so, when you're confronted with something which you've never done before, never experienced before but think it's very important to do it, that I think that's what makes mankind successful, when mankind is successful. You don't know what's going to happen to you, it does happen to you, you're happy that it does happen to you; you're perplexed by the fact that you had this experience, because you don't know how to explain it entirely. But that's what we have to do, we have to enjoy this process. And have to understand that the Solar System is something, we have to learn how to deal with, from that standpoint. The Solar System is there, it works, we've got to learn how to deal with it.

And it's a practical measure. That's all it is, just a practical measure, but our existence depends upon it.

STEGER: Well, you said Saturday night, you have to struggle for the discovery.


STEGER: Struggle for the discovery. Don't look to explain what's happening, struggle for the discovery.

LAROUCHE: Exactly. Well, I gave an example of this in an address I made yesterday: You don't know the future. You have to discover the future. And I think a lot of them caught onto what the point of the discussion was.

STEGER: It has its effect.

LAROUCHE: Yeah. Particularly with that music piece. Because the music that we dealt with, the Brahms, this Brahms became for us a kind of a flag, for us, for the whole body. This is an example in the Brahms' work, this is an example which we really were responding to totally, throughout the entirety of that event. And just, they're there: Here they were, she was doing her part; each was doing his part or her part, and it happened! And something was going on, that happened! And we were all participating in something that was happening, in the process.

And we know this was important, because we were able to bring some of our members together, in a common effort to create something they had not actually fully anticipated. And it worked! It worked beautifully, from beginning to end. And I think most of our people really grasped something like that was going on.

CHRISTIE: You know, Lyn, you've emphasized this in the past, and I think it goes to part of this idea of the discovery of the future, but there is a certain reality, or a part of the discovery-making process, is to realize that you don't know perfectly and that you need to know more perfectly. I think that ironic statement in the Constitution, in order "to form of a more perfect Union," it is something of an interesting way to look at it, but it's the idea that perfection doesn't really exist, because you're always able to go to the higher order. And actually, one thing you've stressed with us, in terms of a social process is part of what makes the emphasis on the social process in anything, but particularly with our Policy Committee, is to figure out what we haven't thought of yet. And that, as far as the strategic situation, you have to always be thinking of what it is, that you're not thinking about. And that quality of hypothesis then, enables you to actually figure out where you need to go.

LAROUCHE: Take the case of Bill Clinton. Now, Bill is a person who I have lately, uhm, I've told him he's got to do the job, that he is uniquely responsible to do a certain job. Not the fully job, but it's an essential part of the full job. And he is, I think, by inclination inclined to do that. I think his wife is not of the same passion; she may have good intentions and so forth, and this and that and so forth, but it's not the same passion. And what we need, actually, in the United States right now, is we need a passion, which is going to drive the people of the United States to create the kind of intention which will provide the solution. And what we're doing, and what I'm trying to do, among others, and what Bill is involved in, these are the things that will determine, whether or not the United States will exist. And that's the way you have to think about it: 's that simple.

What is the way in which you're going to save the United States' existence? And don't choose anything else. And that's it.

SARE: One thing I think Americans, somehow have to get a perspective to see how really dumb and ugly they've become. I mean, I was thinking of your wife describing this travelling in a very short period of time, from China, to Germany, to the United States. And the axioms became very clear in her mind, from the incredible optimism and future orientation of the Chinese, to the sort of pessimism/despair, she called it a "dark quality" of Germany; and then, to the U.S., where you have the absurd, almost, with the people in their SUVs, — you know, this incredible, selfish, small-mindedness, this foolishness, like what Bill was saying, people say, "well, we can't do anything, because we've got to get a Republican majority in the Senate" — for what?

I mean, it's really ugly and dumb, and if people could get an insight and sort of laugh at themselves, compared to what you have from John Quincy Adams, or Monroe, or Lincoln, or Kennedy, Martin Luther King, there is something so much more noble, that our nation has been.

LAROUCHE: We just, in that region of our organization, we cleaned up the mess, or at least we cleaned a large part of the mess up. And we told them to cut it out, cut the nonsense out. We don't want their system any more, we don't want those habits any more. We don't want those arrangements any more.

We want to have our people — you know, like John [Sigerson] involved, in the music. What John is giving something to humanity. And whatever he's doing you can see that in everything he was doing yesterday, he's giving to humanity! He's trying to do a better job of giving to humanity; and he's critical of himself on that basis, and he's critical in the sense that, the minute he sees something that might work, that will work, he's excited! And he excites the people around him, particularly, you know, the trained voices who come into the singing: They're inspired by what he does. Not because he inspires them as such, but because he has the quality and a talent, to be able to generate something to make it happen, that the others might not be able to do at that time.

And that's what's important, is the ability to make a contribution, to the improvement of the mind of people, in the sense of what they can do, what they can know, what they can create. And that's the kind of thing that makes you happy. And it's very simple, because it's just the experience of happiness per se. You did something which you know is good — like John did a couple of things yesterday which were, in his participation, which were that. And we had other people who did things, also, that way.

And I really enjoyed the whole event, because I had this wonderful exhibition of ability to understand mankind. And I had a bunch of people there who did understand, pretty much understand mankind! And if I go outside the area that they were involved in, the people out there, really do not have much of a mind!

OGDEN: It's the leadership of allowing other people to participate in creativity, and to experience happiness. I mean, I think what you're saying about the American people, and the sheer demoralization of the American people, is the failure of the American people is the failure of leadership. And it goes directly to what you're saying about Bill Clinton, Lyn: I mean, we were talking before the show started, about Deng Xiaoping. Think about the leadership of Deng Xiaoping and what he allowed the Chinese people do to, to transform from being cowering victims of the Cultural Revolution, to becoming optimistic participants in the future. That kind of leadership is, I think, the question, that is on the table, when you say, Bill Clinton has the obligation to act at this present time.

LAROUCHE: He does when I put the — shoe on him, and say, "Bill, this is your responsibility."

OGDEN: Right.

LAROUCHE: And that's what you do. You try to get the people who are capable, that have the skills, have the knowledge, have the access, can paint the pictures that are needed for the population — and make those things happen!

OGDEN: Right.

LAROUCHE: Because the United States system is not going to solve the problem of the U.S system. The U.S. system is the problem that's going to be solved, by human beings who have the passion, and the sense of, "Okay! I have to — I have to do this! That's it!" And Bill will act on the basis of what he knows, he has to commit himself to do. Then he's going to look around, at the guy next to him who he's talking to, and saying, "What's your responsibility?" [laughter]

OGDEN: Yeah. And he has the unique capability to do that, and that's why he has the responsibility.

LAROUCHE: Yes! Exactly. And people don't understand how that works with him. Because he has a special way of seeing himself, as we could say in Scottish, "To see oursels as ithers see us!" [laughter] It's a grand place!

OGDEN: Well, do any of you guys out there have anything else to add to the discussion here? Good, if not, thanks for joining us. It was happy to be here, with the full house here in the studio. So that brings a conclusion to our discussion today, and stay tuned to